tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7911788560018241640.post4966196824076468957..comments2023-10-21T11:37:50.732-04:00Comments on The Blackbook Legal Blog: Introducing the "Civil Gideon"Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7911788560018241640.post-72332806705009299652009-10-30T15:10:55.428-04:002009-10-30T15:10:55.428-04:00Personally, I think they can work in conjunction w...Personally, I think they can work in conjunction with one another. I believe that by advocating for increased funding to the Legal Services Corporation, the primary financial source for Legal Aid, it will be easier to actually provide counsel in civil cases. However, if we just fund Legal Aid, there is no control over where the money is going. Also, because Legal Aid is currently drowning in the financial crisis, increased funding may still lead to many meritorious cases being turned away.Robin Shahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15015388378312715055noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7911788560018241640.post-70382189853224410632009-10-30T09:53:53.684-04:002009-10-30T09:53:53.684-04:00Robin - do you think the same result can be achiev...Robin - do you think the same result can be achieved by increasing funding to Legal Aid and similar organizations? Or is there something unique about "Civil Gideon"?mnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7911788560018241640.post-48161009354948002532009-10-29T07:39:50.650-04:002009-10-29T07:39:50.650-04:00It is interesting that this new right will be paid...It is interesting that this new right will be paid for by increased court fees. Who will pay these? Obviously middle class litigants.<br /><br />We were the victims of predatory civil litigation (eventually winning against a home builder who engaged in fraud, although we have never been paid). We are retired, middle class people. That we are not out on the street is just luck. <br /><br />It is not only the poor who lack access to adequate legal representation. We had to fire one lawyer who was an outright thief. We won after 4 years by doing all of the research, formulating all of the winning arguments, and writing all the substantive briefs. We then propped up our mouthpiece to speak our words in front of the judge. He could barely do that. Didn't stop him from billing, however.<br /><br />When will middle class litigants get some relief?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7911788560018241640.post-69064047436993687212009-10-29T01:34:06.039-04:002009-10-29T01:34:06.039-04:00Indeed, "laymen cannot be expected to know ho...Indeed, "laymen cannot be expected to know how to protect their rights when dealing with practiced and carefully counseled adversaries," and there should therefore be a right to counsel in civil cases. There still is a problem however; this right only takes effect once cases reach trial. This means that in any dispute, one side can use their greater intelligence or knowledge to convince the other side to avoid formal legal proceedings, and thus take advantage of them. It is thus clear that in the interests of fairness and equality, all participants in any human interaction should have the right to counsel.Bobnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7911788560018241640.post-38349602803712801782009-10-28T15:37:43.548-04:002009-10-28T15:37:43.548-04:00When a homeowners association sues individual home...When a <a href="http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2002/12/17/carollloyd.DTL" rel="nofollow">homeowners association</a> sues individual homeowners, the defendant is paying for both the plaintiff's attorney -- through his regular H.O.A. dues -- and his own legal costs.<br /><br />I am not aware of any H.O.A. that provides for legal representation for individual homeowners in disputes against the board of directors or property managers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7911788560018241640.post-34140544998058881672009-10-28T15:30:43.858-04:002009-10-28T15:30:43.858-04:00I think that for those being sued this is a good t...I think that for those being sued this is a good thing. However, it should be tied to a "you win the plaintiff pays the fees" program. Not the most fair but helps level the field toward a settlement... if you settle your fees are covered by the state and the plaintiff doesn't pay. Go to court - win, plaintiff pays your fees, lose - judge has the option to tag you as frivoulous in which case you become liable for fees (note no requirement for this) otherwise the state picks up the fee.<br /><br />In other words I like the underlying idea but in a civil case I think there need to be ways to limit the state's liability. Other options I'm sure abound.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7911788560018241640.post-31108641325589042962009-10-28T14:54:50.952-04:002009-10-28T14:54:50.952-04:00Thank you! I honestly commend California for intro...Thank you! I honestly commend California for introducing the legislation but delaying its effective start date until 2011. Right now, the money is going into the court system's general operating budget, which is definitely a step in the right direction. However, my concern lies with how long it will take the courts to get back to stable ground. Moreover, I don't know if stable ground is even the best state to be in to take on such a mandate. Maybe things would have been different if the Prop 13 vote had come out the other way, but in the midst of a recession, I just hope California can handle being the pioneer.Robin Shahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15015388378312715055noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7911788560018241640.post-86238288210133975582009-10-28T14:26:03.063-04:002009-10-28T14:26:03.063-04:00Robin, really great job on this. What do you thin...Robin, really great job on this. What do you think about the implications on Cali's economy? The courts are already overloaded.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7911788560018241640.post-26810630111591200402009-10-28T14:01:35.516-04:002009-10-28T14:01:35.516-04:00In response to who gets to determine the indigent ...In response to who gets to determine the indigent status, according to the WSJ article,<br /><br />"Those living at 200% above the federal poverty guidelines or less will be eligible for free legal services."Robin Shahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15015388378312715055noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7911788560018241640.post-63842283281229340572009-10-28T13:59:37.090-04:002009-10-28T13:59:37.090-04:00Gee. Lawyers think it's a good idea to provide...Gee. Lawyers think it's a good idea to provide free (to the client) lawyers. Quel surprise.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7911788560018241640.post-39725032807222595672009-10-28T13:55:59.537-04:002009-10-28T13:55:59.537-04:00Who gets to determine the indigent status?Who gets to determine the indigent status?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7911788560018241640.post-74746554106574860242009-10-28T12:23:21.379-04:002009-10-28T12:23:21.379-04:00The main problem with Civil Gideon is that you wil...The main problem with Civil Gideon is that you will have indigent litigants whose decisions on whether and how to pursue their cases will not be constrained by financial considerations. This actually is going to create an UNeven playing field.<br /> <br />Realistically, if one party is indigent and the other has $10,000 in savings available to hire a lawyer, the party with the cash still has a very powerful economic incentive not to engage in unnecessary discovery, file vexatious motions, or avoid settlement in favor of a full-blown trial. As a practicing attorney myself, I can tell you that even people who can "afford" a lawyer still strongly prefer not to pay any more attorney's fees than are absolutely necessary. If Civil Gideon means handing ostensibly indigent parties a blank check with which they can turn every case into the Microsoft antitrust litigation, then it WILL dramatically increase the courts' workload. Moreover, such a move won't eliminate the perceived unfairness of the current system, but rather shift the advantage in favor of the party whose legal expenses are being subsidized. (I also don't see how a $10/case surcharge can possibly fund a program like this, but whatever.)<br /><br />The better solution by far would be increased funding for legal services organizations. Properly funded, they can obtain legal representation for those indigents who have genuinely meritorious claims and defenses, while screening out or limiting assistance to those who don't. Unless you want to explode the system completely, both sides need to be operating under some kind of constraint that encourages them to settle their cases or at least narrow the scope of issues that need to be tried.CBhttp://www.awkwardstances.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7911788560018241640.post-24787181491252188702009-10-28T12:05:11.433-04:002009-10-28T12:05:11.433-04:00The problem I see with this is also the raise in c...The problem I see with this is also the raise in court fees. For important cases, indigents can typically get assistance from legal clinics and law schools. In this respect, they do not have to pay counsel fees, but are nonetheless responsible for court costs, etc. Raising the price here, however small, seems likely to have a bad effect on these clinics who deal with a heavy caseload and the litigants themselves.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7911788560018241640.post-80248054104044588772009-10-28T12:03:22.417-04:002009-10-28T12:03:22.417-04:00I can't imagine that California with its curre...I can't imagine that California with its current financial conditoin would extend this to traffic cases.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7911788560018241640.post-53643515247685665662009-10-28T12:00:44.275-04:002009-10-28T12:00:44.275-04:00Will this extend to traffic cases? If not with the...Will this extend to traffic cases? If not with the current legislation, how far off can it be?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7911788560018241640.post-53413216297233414852009-10-28T11:36:12.646-04:002009-10-28T11:36:12.646-04:00> The purpose of a court system is to level the...> The purpose of a court system is to level the playing field.<br /><br />If that's the purpose, providing lawyers to both sides doesn't accomplish it.<br /><br />A level playing field has equally competent counsel on both sides.<br /><br />We can get there with fixed fees, say $1000 per divorce, split equally between the opposing sides.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7911788560018241640.post-49530417129067715862009-10-28T10:17:22.102-04:002009-10-28T10:17:22.102-04:00"I mean, if everyone can just represent thems..."I mean, if everyone can just represent themselves, then why are we spending so much money on law school?"<br /><br />The question can be asked with a slightly different emphasis than I think you intended.Vadernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7911788560018241640.post-65893702818498628042009-10-28T10:04:02.210-04:002009-10-28T10:04:02.210-04:00As someone who was bankrupted by legal defense fee...As someone who was bankrupted by legal defense fees(in what I considered a frivolous lawsuit-brought by a former business associate determined to use his deep pockets to drive me from the marketplace), where the local court rules required that my business have an attorney, I can tell you that the system needs to be changed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7911788560018241640.post-65989597339497217432009-10-28T09:33:02.247-04:002009-10-28T09:33:02.247-04:00Lawyers for indigents are useless anyways. I went...Lawyers for indigents are useless anyways. I went to a murder trial where one was representing a defendant, and was sleeping during the trial.S. Macnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7911788560018241640.post-86242490618022099542009-10-28T09:23:17.995-04:002009-10-28T09:23:17.995-04:00Getting a free lawyer to argue a civil case will o...Getting a free lawyer to argue a civil case will only increase court fees by $10? Really? That's one cheap lawyer.Diggshttp://diggsc.typepad.com/tomorrowandtomorrowand/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7911788560018241640.post-75341251890091752402009-10-28T08:57:38.328-04:002009-10-28T08:57:38.328-04:00>>Well, from the ABA's mouth to Governor...>>Well, from the ABA's mouth to Governor Schwarzenegger's ears, and we get the first state law in California mandating legal representation for indigent civil litigants, otherwise known as the "Civil Gideon.<br /><br />The ABA is in truth the Liberal Bar Association. And it never ceases to amaze me that a state imploding in real time before everyone's eyes nevertheless has time for this. Talk about rearranging chairs on the deck of the Titanic.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7911788560018241640.post-21741026140486116642009-10-28T08:54:26.435-04:002009-10-28T08:54:26.435-04:00"While many civil parties successfully file s..."While many civil parties successfully file suits pro se, I think it is fair to say that they often lack the knowledge and skills to successfully plead a case."<br /><br />Hmmmmm. Why has it evolved that it takes increasingly specialized knowledge to plead a case? Reroute two-thirds of the attorneys into productive lines of work, and we'd all be better off.Charliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04132312252813270501noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7911788560018241640.post-80294321255177534082009-10-27T23:56:12.994-04:002009-10-27T23:56:12.994-04:00I completely agree with your analysis of Ted Frank...I completely agree with your analysis of Ted Frank's criticism of CA's Civil Gideon. The purpose of a court system is to level the playing field. Out of court settlements are good to the extent that the parties are already operating from a level playing; there, the court becomes redundant. But when settlements are happening because one party doesn't have proper representation while the other has the resources to hire competent counsel, settlements are not good; they don't reflect a fair outcome and court-based resolution is necessary. To assume, as Frank seems to do, that landlords and tenants operate from a level playing field, seems silly and unrealistic. <br /><br />What bothers me about Frank and other tort-reform advocates is that they conflate the problems of access to justice and frivolous lawsuits. Yes, there are frivolous lawsuits. But not every lawsuit is frivolous. Tort-reform advocates seem to forget this latter point. Just because more people are given access to justice doesn't mean that these new entrants are going to bring frivolous lawsuits; the reason these people were left out of the justice was not because they had meritless claims. And conflating these problems doesn't help to solve either one. We shouldn't be attempting to solve the problem of frivolous lawsuits by keeping people out of the court system.mnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7911788560018241640.post-83918989265741782882009-10-27T22:59:32.423-04:002009-10-27T22:59:32.423-04:00Great contentGreat contentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com